Jeep Wagoneer S and Mazda Miata updates | Autoblog Podcast #817

In this episode of the Autoblog Podcast, Editor-in-Chief Greg Migliore is joined by Senior Editor, Electric, John Beltz Snyder. In the news, F1 snubs Michael Andretti, Jeep shows off the electric Wagoneer S, Mazda reveals the updated 2024 Miata, Mary Barra talks about future plug-in hybrids, and Rivian is set to reveal a new global product. In reviews this week, we've been driving the new Kia EV9, the Genesis Electrified GV70 and our long-term WRX. We also get a Spend My Money update, and help someone pick a replacement for a Cadillac CTS.

Send us your questions for the Mailbag and Spend My Money at: Podcast@Autoblog.com.

Video Transcript

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GREG MIGLIORE: Welcome back to the "Autoblog Podcast." I'm Greg Migliore. We've got an awesome show for you this week. Breaking news as of today, Formula One has rejected the US entry that is involving Andretti and General Motors. We have some opinions about that. Let's put it that way. And they are not mild.

There is an electric Jeep Wagoneer. It looks pretty good, looks pretty sleek. We'll talk about that. Some updates to the Miata. General Motors is going back to hybrids. This is interesting. And there's a new Rivian coming up next month.

We'll talk about what we've been driving, which includes an update of our long-term WRX-- it's a lot of fun. I've been driving that through the snow-- the electrified Genesis GV70, and the Kia EV9. We also will spend your money. And we have an update from an old friend who writes in with an update.

So let's get ready to do it. Senior editor for all things electric, John Snyder, joins me today. How are you doing, man?

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: I'm doing quite well. You know, we just got dumped on with snow, which has made driving fun. So yeah, I'm doing great.

GREG MIGLIORE: It is snowy. It is close to 40 degrees, though. She took the--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yes, it's melted--

GREG MIGLIORE: --dog through a walk--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: --quickly.

GREG MIGLIORE: --in the woods. And it was melty, as you say. Yeah, cool.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Do-- I do like-- you know, when-- you know, when it starts to get slushy. And if you've still got-- like, my road still has sort of a layer of compacted snow, almost ice underneath that slush. So you can really get the tail out and get some slush spraying up on the windows. It's fun.

GREG MIGLIORE: It's a lot of fun. And we'll talk about that, about how I'm doing it in the WRX. Don't let me forget. It's-- with the WRX, there's like three different ways you can approach the snow like the actual snow, the slush, and then just the ice. And that's pretty good at all of them, so.

All right. So we're recording this on Wednesday about noon-ish, this afternoon. And this morning, Formula One has rejected Michael Andretti's bid to join the grid. They were looking to get in there in 2025 or 2026. And they basically have said, come talk to us again three years, four years from now down the road. That's 2028 when GM, which supported the team, has an engine built.

Now they came out pretty-- at a very strongly worded statement, I would say. Formula One said that they think the entrance would not be competitive. They don't think the applicant would be a competitive participant. So they basically repeated themselves. And they think it would be-- here is a-- this is wow, "damaging to the prestige and standing of the championship."

Now, OK, yeah. So I think that's-- you know, with this dropped, the stories on "Autoblog," we have an opinion piece coming later today. So by the time the podcast drops, which usually is on Friday, all this stuff will be out there.

But I really think this is arrogant and shortsighted by Formula One. I think-- would the Andretti team have probably been competitive in its first year? Of course not. Expansion teams at any sport usually aren't.

And I think, frankly, the better move would have been to get out of the grid, you know, after that new car launches in '26. Like, I don't really know if being on there in '25 would have been the best move. But I don't think it would have been this injustice, this indignant outrage the way the FIA, the Formula One has sort of responded.

Now, look, everybody, life is hard. You know, you get strong takes. You know, maybe some of this was boilerplate language. But I mean, what are they thinking? Big picture? It's just that it really seemed like a missed opportunity.

You want to expand the richest market? But what are the largest TV markets? You know, you don't think GM might have done something like-- I don't know-- buy a Super Bowl ad? It just seems very short sighted and petty, almost. You know, it almost seemed anti-American the way they responded, so.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Well, yeah. I mean, with, you know, more races and more hype in America around F1, it would make sense to bring in some more American identity and let them compete. Just let them show what they can do.

And like you said, yeah, they might suck. If they suck, they suck. But I mean, it's going to draw more interest to the program and draw more fans. And it could make for interesting racing. I don't know. Just-- I don't like the way FIA comes off in this. I mean, it's sort of on brand for them. But-- and maybe it's just me from my American standpoint. But still, I just think it would be good for the sport.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. No, I agree. And I mean, it's-- I'm not saying, hey, give us a team because you want TV ratings. Like, I get that. But I do think this was an opportunity for the sport to grow globally and, obviously, a very, you know, great opportunity here in this market.

And they're also totally assuming that the Andretti team was going to get out there and suck. Like, to me, they're getting way ahead of it. You know--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: --sports and F1 in particular is littered with all sorts of different stat-ups that have done well, so. I mean, they do lay that out in their case. They're like, well, historically, new manufacturers don't do well at first. Fare, but not always, you know? Again, it just-- it seemed very short sighted, parochial, petty. I don't know.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, yeah, I agree with you. That's a good word for it.

GREG MIGLIORE: So this would have taken F1 to-- from 10 teams to 11. You know, they did pass sort of an initial, like, technical check earlier. This always did seem, frankly, a little shaky. That was just my read off right even when they announced it.

But it seemed like things were progressing. So the fact that they-- you know, Formula 1, the FIA has come out so strongly today, to me, I think it's-- it is a slap in the face. And it's-- I-- also, I think it's frustrating, you know?

I mean, I'm not saying I would have rooted for Andretti, you know? But it's just-- it's a common sense thing if you're trying to grow your sport and grow the branding. And I think they're jumping, leaping, hurtling to conclusions--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: --to make their argument, which it sounds like they said this wasn't involving the other teams. Yeah, right. Get real. Like, that's worth the paper this thing is printed on. So, you know?

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Well, it just-- you know, if 2028 comes around and Andretti does join then with, you know, GM powertrain, it makes me more likely to root for them And hope to, like, you know, dominate and put them in their place just to-- yeah, this is a slap back on this. But I don't know.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. No, I-- I'm with you there. Like, I-- there's a lot of drivers I like. You know, I'm half Italian. So I like Ferrari, you know? Kind of like the Alfa Romeo a little bit. But you want to talk about a team that struggled for, you know, quite a while.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Oh, yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: It just really seemed like they got selective here about, like, assuming things weren't going to go well, so.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I mean, we'll see. Kind of a frustrating day. Twitter is just-- Twitter/X is just broken right now if you're on it looking at, you know, the outrage from different parts of the racing community. You know, I mean, they have every right to not let whoever they want into their club, if you will.

It reminds me a little bit of-- I'm a pretty big football fan. And there's, like, conference expansion. And there's all these, like, teams you-- schools you would not think of are now in, like, other conferences. Like, the University of Washington is going to play in the Big Ten--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, and--

GREG MIGLIORE: --which kind of makes my head explode, right?

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: And Oregon, which I'm excited about. Both those teams, like--

GREG MIGLIORE: Me, too.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: I was watching them and--

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: --actually really like both those teams. So it'll be fun to see it. But yeah, I see what you're referring to there. But I think it's a good thing, you know?

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. yeah. Well, for what I'm also saying here too is I think Washington and Oregon and UCLA and USC joining the Big Ten is a great thing. I think it's really good for the conference as a Big Ten grad, you know? And I think that's sort of what could have happened here with, you know, Formula One, you know?

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: But so it goes. All right, so head over to "Autoblog." By the time, again, you're listening to this, we'll have some opinions up there. Road Test Zac Palmer has thoughts. Go check those out over the weekend.

All right, so let's transition over to some sheet metal, the electric Wagoneer just sort of parachuted out of the sky earlier this week. Looks pretty good. A little different than I thought it would look. It's pretty sleek. It honestly looks a little bit like a Chevy Blazer or even a Lexus.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: Different than I thought it would.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Definitely does have that Blazer vibe. It looks more Grand Cherokee than Wagoneer, which is good.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: I think this looks a lot better. Yeah, I think it actually looks really good. It does have that sort of those Blazer muscles, you know, those bulging fenders and whatnot. And I really like that. What you can see of the face, that front lighting looks really slick.

But it still looks-- you know, the grill looks like maybe a little bit small for a Jeep maybe, a little bit understated. But, you know, I'll wait until I see it in the flesh. But I think, you know, from the profile and these interior shots, it looks really nice. I'm really pleased with how this looks.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, the interior, I think, is-- could be something very impressive. Jeep has done a pretty good job with their interiors in recent years. So in some ways, they've been more consistent than the exteriors, where we've been-- you know, they've been-- had more polarizing design, I think, in the last probably decade or so than perhaps Jeeps used to be, so.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: This one's aggressive. I could see a lot of people perhaps not liking it. It's a little tough. I know we say this all the time because of the press photos. But it's like a dark--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: --Jeep they showed. So cliché. But I think I kind of need to see it in real life first, but.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: It's definitely a little more street looking than sort of of the off-road vibe that a lot of the other Jeeps give off regardless--

GREG MIGLIORE: Yes.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: --of how off roady they are.

GREG MIGLIORE: It looks fast. So--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: As opposed to, like, off-road capable. But perhaps it'll be both. 600 horsepower.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, it'll be fun. That's for sure.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah. No, this is going to be cool as the-- I always have liked Jeep massagers. They're always quite good. So yeah, we'll see.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: And, you know, I like the McIntosh audio system [INAUDIBLE]. You can sort of see that on display. They've got the, well, equalizer needle display sort of things going on in there. You can see it from sort of a distance.

So yeah, it'll be-- it's sticking with the sort of more upscale Jeep has gone, especially with like the Wagoneer name in terms of interiors. So it'll continue with that route too. But yeah, definitely looks like a hoot.

GREG MIGLIORE: All right, let's talk Miata. The MX5 gets a lot of updates. It's interesting because I can see both of these-- especially the Miata being shown at the Chicago Auto Show, which apparently they won't be as auto shows have continued to decline.

I was at auto show party celebrating the Miata's reveal. I forget what anniversary it was. But it was 10, 15 years ago. So do the math. And the original Miata was shown at the Chicago Auto Show way back in whatever that was, late '80s, early '90s.

So-- and this is the exact kind of thing you would show there, I think. It's like a cool car with some updates. And this is-- you know, this is not a new generation. But it's an update of this current generation the ND, as we call it. Zac Palmer calls it the ND3, which I think is a pretty good way to put it out there in his write-up, which you can check out on there.

Some chassis updates, you know different things with know the stability control, a lot of under the skin stuff here. Tweak the brakes a little bit, try to, again, make the car handle better. There's some styling changes. But I don't really see them from the pictures. Apparently, there's new LED lights. We'll see. I haven't driven the Miata in probably two years, at least.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, it's been a while. But man, if they can make it even better driving, you know? I always worry about when an automaker messes with a good thing. But Mazda tends to really do a really good job of incrementally improving their driving dynamics with their vehicles.

And yeah, so Mazda says it's going to have smoother steering with a more defined on-center feeling, which I don't mind that. And then in Mazda's words, greater precision as the front tires are loaded up under hard cornering. Sounds perfect for a little roadster. You know, that's the-- we already sort of appreciate its handling.

You know, if you can improve things incrementally here and there, yeah, do it. And Mazda is always sort of followed a sort of gram strategy where they look closely at the details to see what they can improve bit by bit, where they can take out some weight, where they can improve the handling.

And so yeah, I think these-- these little improvements might not strike you after just coming out of, you know, the pre-refresh. But, you know, if you go back into the beginning of the generation or last generation, if you could do like a vertical tasting of Miatas, I'm sure it would come through in that sort of drive.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, can't wait to drive this one. Hopefully, it get through our fleet here just in time for summer when some of the slush and snow melts. So it'll be a fun one. It will be.

All right, so it was earnings season last week and this week. And GM announced their earnings. They made money-- too long to read-- but not as much as they did before. And one of the things, though, that they mentioned that caught our attention is CEO Mary Barra mentioned that they will begin investing in hybrids again, which is something that they moved away from as they went all in on the all-electric field.

I think you kind of got to pick your battles. And things like the Chevy Volt, you know, went by the wayside. But Barra says that a plug-in hybrid perhaps several are in the offer, are going to be in the hopper coming up.

And I think this is a pretty good move I think it's a good interim play. And I think they're also definitely hedging their bets in the event--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: --of, you know, some upheaval in the political and economic spaces.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: For sure. Yeah, there's definitely some hedging going on, especially with some of the difficulty they've had just producing EVs.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Automakers in general, you know, have been sort of complaining. And dealers have been complaining too. I don't know if that's the fault of just consumers don't want EVs or dealers just aren't trying hard enough to sell them, aren't educating themselves on the product enough. I don't know.

But I think a plug-in hybrid, you know, regardless of the motivations behind putting out or plug-in hybrids, I think it's a good thing if it means you'll sell more of those than-- and fewer pure internal combustion vehicles. The more miles-- and this is what Toyota's been saying all along in their EV/hybrid strategy, the more miles you can get out there in the world on electric power, the better, whether it's, you know, coming from a hybrids battery or an EV.

You know, if you're going to get five people into plug-in hybrids where you'd only get one into an EV, you know, it's-- and you can still maybe get that one into an EV. That makes a lot more sense just from a-- an emissions and fleet standpoint and, you know, decarbonization. So I think regardless of what their motive is behind it, I think it's a good move overall.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I agree. I'm looking at this. There's a story in the "Free Press" about this, "Detroit Free Press" with Bob Lutz, "Maximum" Bob unveiling--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: --the original Volt concept. He's still kicking. He had his 90th birthday, I think, over the summer. And it showed up on some social feeds. And a lot of people, famous car people were at it. And here he is back in 2007 unveiling it, looking rather dapper. And I was at that reveal.

I remember. I was-- yeah, man, I remember that. It was-- I ended up writing about the actual, like, reveal of the production Volt, which was in the fall of 2008. So like a year plus later. And a lot of people said, wow, boy, this really kind of lost its mojo en route to production because you look at this concept.

And yeah, it's got 17 years old. I can't believe that. But then you look at what the Volt kind of became. And it was, you know, definitely a little more homely, if you will. So it was-- the Volt concept was cool. And you think they could bring back the Volt? The only bad part of it would be confusing with the Bolt. That's the--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: --only downside to it. But--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: [INAUDIBLE]

GREG MIGLIORE: --a Volt plug-in hybrid--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: I mean, I want to go through that all over again. But--

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: I think-- I don't know if they bring back the Volt in the format that it was. I think--

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: --you just have to build something a little bigger now. But I mean, I remember when the Volt went away and how badly we lamented it. We loved that thing. And--

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: --we're sad to see it go. And yes, they were moving on to their Bev strategy. But it was sad to see them leave such a great car like the Volt behind when they were pioneers in plug-in hybrid technology.

So I'm glad to see GM stepping back into that, for sure. They were one of the first to do it. They did it really well. And, you know, they've had a ton of experience since then with electrification in general. So yeah, I will be looking forward to driving a plug-in hybrid-- I don't know-- anything. The new Camaro might be a good--

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: --candidate for it.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, I think lost in some of the noise that surrounds electric vehicles or staying only gas is the vast sort of different options that lie in between from hybrids to plug-in hybrids that can be very useful for a lot of different people. I drove the Prius. It was about six weeks ago now, I guess. Really enjoyed it. I can see how that could work for a lot of different people.

And, you know, I spent my entire holiday vacation, basically, in electrics, which was great. Loved it. Had some challenges with the charging, which is to be expected. But I can see how some people-- like, we all have only so much, like, the situations that we try to navigate through life. And we all have probably just so much bandwidth for problem solving and troubleshooting.

And perhaps your car isn't something you have time to, like, troubleshoot. You just want to, like, gas it up, then maybe charge it up, and then not think about it for a week. So that's where a hybrid can be brilliant.

So I think the move would probably be for them not to rebuild the Volt but make a Blazer hybrid or Equinox hybrid or Camaro hybrid--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: --something like that.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: There's also-- plug-in hybrids are a better solution for a lot of single-car households too.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: They need something that's going to do all the roles that they can be efficient around town. And then you drive across the country on a long road trip to go see the family or whatever without having to really worry about it.

You know, someone like me, my household, we have a gas car. My second car would be a-- an EV and probably will be here soon. We've talked about that previously. I think the last time I was on the podcast, we talked a bit about that.

But yeah, if it were just, you know, a single person or a one-car household, especially if you're sort of rural, yeah, that might be tough to get by on EV. I mean, probably not as tough as you'd think, but definitely tough enough to make you think twice about buying one.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: No, it's tricky. And then there's also, I think, you face, not just with EVs, like understanding charging and things like that, which, you know, even for us as car journalists, it takes a little bit to figure out-- you know, I don't want to go to this level 2 charger and then think I'm going to get fast charging capability.

Like, there's a educational curve. And with hybrids, it's a little bit the same way because I think one of the challenges about the old Volt is I don't think people necessarily used it the right way, you know? Like, they'd let it run down and then forget about it or-- and this is perhaps the case for plug-in hybrids writ large is, you know, people just didn't really use them exactly the right way, which is more on the manufacturers to sort of educate, if you will.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: But that's-- there's a trickiness. And that's where you see things like, again, the Prius. You know, you could get a regular hybrid or go with the prime, which gives you like, what, 30 miles or so or more of electric range plug-in. And you just pick which kind of Prius do you want. And I think that'd be a great model for General Motors to follow.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Agreed, yeah. Yeah, I mean, a lot of people feel like end up using their plug-in hybrids just as regular hybrids. They don't plug them in as--

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: --often as they like. Maybe the garage is full. Maybe, you know, it's just cold, and they don't want to deal with the unraveling, the charging cable. Or, you know, they live in an apartment that don't have a good spot to plug it in, that sort of thing.

GREG MIGLIORE: I found when I would be driving the different Jeep 4xes that I could really get some efficiency out of those. You know, you-- I don't have a charger. But I could sometimes use a trickle charger. Or I would go to like the mall where there'd be like a bank of chargers.

At the mall for a few hours, you get something to eat. I mean, you're not going to necessarily top yourself off. But it's just all that feeds into it. And next thing you know, you're not even filling the Jeep up hardly ever.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: So.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: And that's another benefit about having the actual plug rather than a regular hybrid. Lots of times, you get the premium parking spots. A lot of times, they'll have--

GREG MIGLIORE: Oh, yeah.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: --EV spots right by the door.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: You just plug in. And, you know, there you are. You're taking advantage of the electricity and take advantage of the excellent parking.

GREG MIGLIORE: I forget where I was. But I had a hybrid-- excuse me, an all-electric car. And I just-- you know, I think I had just turned the EV in. And something else is coming from the press fleet. And I remember thinking, oh my gosh, look at these rows of like free chargers. And we had to go all the way up to the top of this parking structure. And I'm like, wow, that's-- what was I thinking here? So it goes.

All right. So staying with EVs, let's talk about what appears to be the RS2. This is a smaller SUV. We're going to get a worldwide product launch as our headline says coming out on March 7th. So about six weeks from now.

You know, Rivian currently has two vehicles-- the R1S and the R1T. They're both fairly good-sized vehicles-- the truck and the SUV. Both quite interesting to drive. We know very little about what this thing will be.

But the CEO, RJ Scaringe, has been teasing this on social media for a while. So you can see those out there. And then the most recent kind of teaser is kind of a squared off, you know, car, truck, SUV thing. It's an SUV with, you know, wrapping over it. It looks like he's talking to the designer.

So yeah, this'll be interesting. I think they're going to do it in the South Coast Theater, it sounds like, Laguna Beach. So if you're in the area, sounds like that's what's going on.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah, I'd love to see Rivian come out with more products. Man, I have been seeing Rivians all over the place, not just here in Michigan, but when I travel anywhere in the United States. I see them everywhere.

And, you know, staying in Arizona with my sister-in-law and brother-in-law, my brother-in-law was like, what do you think of this Rivian company? I'm like, oh, you're starting to see those too, huh? And so-- and sure enough, you know, we went driving around. There's Rivians at the Starbucks, Rivians at the movie theater. You know, it's pretty cool to see.

But yeah, I'll be excited to see more products, especially with a little bit lower price tags. Seeing as there's an R2 coming out as an SUV-- probably could be the R2S would make sense-- boy, I sure hope they've come out with an R2T.

GREG MIGLIORE: Oh, man.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: That would be neat.

GREG MIGLIORE: That-- I mean that's right into the segment that-- where it's red hot. You know--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: --I imagine the R1T isn't huge.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: No.

GREG MIGLIORE: I would say it's like-- it's not like a midsize truck. But I would say it's like in between a Silverado and a Colorado without--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: --getting out the rulers, if you will. But just from a rough silhouette and also like mission, what-- you know, that the R1T does. It kind of slots right in there, which to me is the perfect size. It's a really--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: --you know, really interesting truck. I'm excited for this. I think this is going to be cool.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: I do too. Yeah. Looking forward to seeing-- I'm looking forward to seeing how much they changed the styling from the R1S. I imagine that they won't just make a smaller carbon copy. Even though from this sort of photo of it under wraps, it does kind of look like that same boxy shape very much. I hope they give it enough of its own identity that the R1S owners still feel like they've got something special.

GREG MIGLIORE: Cool. All right, so come back to us on March 7th. We'll have the story. Should be cool. I think Rivians have been among the more interesting vehicles I've driven in the last couple of years. They really stand out, just that-- like, sometimes you drive a cool car. You don't even remember it, which sounds cliche.

But it's also, like, the job, you take notes. You're on to the next one. But I can honestly remember, like, vividly the R1T and the R1S both times. And they're pretty cool. I think--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: I remember the first time seeing one in-- on the road. You know, it was a prototype. I live kind-- right down the road from their headquarters.

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: And so coming in and out of Ann Arbor every once in a while, I'd see an R1T prototype go by. And yeah, that stuck with me. And I still point them out even when I start seeing, you know, multiple in a day in places that aren't Michigan. I'm still pointing them out because they're cool.

GREG MIGLIORE: So hot take. Right now their two-vehicle lineup is better than Tesla's, like, four-, five-vehicle lineup. Would you agree or disagree?

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: I don't think-- I don't think they've got enough of the bases covered. When they have something affordable, you know--

GREG MIGLIORE: Yeah, fair.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: --then let's talk.

GREG MIGLIORE: Fair. Yeah, it's a good way to put it. My-- the point I'm trying to make, perhaps a straw man argument here, is that you got a truck. You got an SUV. People like those. And they make them--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Sure.

GREG MIGLIORE: --more expensive than small sedans.

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: True. True.

GREG MIGLIORE: And if you took the badge off, what do you think most Americans would rather drive?

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: Boxy crossover or a small crossover or a small sedan? So--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: --just--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Point taken.

GREG MIGLIORE: --you know? I don't know. It's interesting. And like you, I see a lot of them. And people ask me about them. They're almost like the Tesla alternative. Like, yeah, I've thought about electrics. I've thought about Tesla.

I don't know how I feel about what their CEO says and does and everything he's doing these days. But this Rivian company, they've got this boxy SUV. It looks kind of cool. So it's-- that's literally the thought process people say to me. And then they say something like, well, I don't know if I drive enough to spend, you know, whatever the sticker price is on like an entry level one, which is not--

JOHN BELTZ SNYDER: Yeah.

GREG MIGLIORE: --cheap It's like 60, 70, so.