Full transcript of "Face the Nation" on September 19, 2021

On this "Face the Nation" broadcast moderated by Margaret Brennan:

Dr. Francis Collins, director of the National Institutes of HealthSenator Bernie Sanders, independent from VermontScott Kirby, CEO of United AirlinesDr. Scott Gottlieb, former FDA commissioner

Click here to browse full transcripts of "Face the Nation."

MARGARET BRENNAN: I'm Margaret Brennan in Washington. And this week on FACE THE NATION, the Biden administration's booster shot plans hit a roadblock, and Congress gets set for a fall budget showdown.

There is relief this morning in the nation's capital as the strong show of security at Saturday's rally in support of those arrested following the January 6th insurrection kept the crowds away. Nothing like the scene nine months ago. Now the focus turns to lawmakers, as both Houses of Congress return to Washington for the first time since the end of July. First up, consideration of a massive 3.5-trillion-dollar spending plan that threatens to shatter the fragile fault lines within the Democratic Party. We'll talk with Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders.

Plus, an FDA advisory panel overwhelming votes against widespread booster shots for adults, saying that the data is inconclusive. We'll ask the Director of the National Institutes of Health Dr. Francis Collins what happened.

Plus, we'll have a special conversation with former FDA Commissioner Dr. Scott Gottlieb. His new book, Uncontrolled Spread takes a hard look at America's covid failures and offers some solutions.

SCOTT GOTTLIEB, M.D. (Former FDA Commissioner/@ScottGottliebMD/Author, Uncontrolled Spread): We cannot allow something like this to hit us this bad again, so we have to prepare differently.

MARGARET BRENNAN: We'll also talk with United Airlines CEO Scott Kirby about how the travel industry is navigating the persistent pandemic threat.

Plus, a look at the fallout from the U.S. military's tragic mistake last month in Afghanistan.

It's all just ahead on FACE THE NATION.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Good morning, and welcome to FACE THE NATION. On the COVID front the news is still bleak. Nearly 10,000 Americans died last week of the virus. We now total more than 673,000 dead. Children, who are still not eligible for vaccines, account for almost 29% of all cases. And according to the AAP, there were nearly a quarter million new pediatric covid infections last week. We begin with Senior National Correspondent Mark Strassmann in Orlando.

(Begin VT)

MARK STRASSMANN (CBS News Senior National Correspondent): Instead of widespread booster, the Biden White House got a shot of rejection. An FDA advisory panel on Friday recommended Pfizer boosters only for vaccinated seniors and high-risk patients. A decision-making it challenging process even more so.

VIVEK MURTHY, M.D. (U.S. Surgeon General): If you want to roll out booster shots to the population, you can't flip a switch and make that happen overnight.

MARK STRASSMANN: Not in COVID America, where the virus now kills around nineteen hundred people a day, the highest average in six months. By any measure, COVID sorrow stalks Florida with a vengeance. More than fifty thousand Floridians already dead. An average of three hundred fifty more every day tops in America.

DR. VINCENT HSU: We've got to manage our behaviors. We got to get vaccinated.

MARK STRASSMANN: Doctor Vincent Hsu, an infectious disease physician, works at AdventHealth, Orlando. Systemwide AdventHealth has fifty hospitals with seventeen hundred COVID patients. More than half of them in Central Florida.

DR. VINCENT HSU: There is still a lot of issues with-- with taking care of these patients, supplies, space, as well as staffing.

MARK STRASSMANN: Continuous surges remain a threat?

DR. VINCENT HSU: We always have to be prepared for another surge.

MARK STRASSMANN: Critics blast the state's leadership for failing to protect the youngest Floridians.

SCOTT GOTTLIEB, M.D. (Former FDA Commissioner): The decision to keep-- trying to keep kids in school was the right decision. The decision to let the virus spread the way it has and not even employ mitigation in the schools, as they're doing now, I disagree with that decision.

MARK STRASSMANN: Pandemic politics surged blood pressures across the country.

CROWD (in unison): No more masks.

MARK STRASSMANN: In Ohio, state lawmakers threaten to block any mask mandate the governor tried to issue. And like his reaction--

GOVERNOR MIKE DEWINE (R-Ohio): Every single county is red-hot. Some counties are almost boiling over.

MARK STRASSMANN: At the United Nations, the global worry: a potential superspreader event starting on Tuesday. New York City has a vaccine mandate for conventions, but the U.N. has no power to enforce it.

ANTÓNIO GUTERRES (U.N. Secretary General): We, as Secretariat, cannot tell a head of state if he is not vaccinated that he cannot enter the United Nations.

(End VT)

MARK STRASSMANN: This hospital, Orlando's largest, is short hundreds of nurses despite retention bonuses and shift bonuses. And it's a crisis across America's hospitals. Early retirements, resignations, and a rash of sick days, staff burned out by this ongoing COVID siege. Margaret.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mark, thank you.

We'd like to now welcome the director of the National Institutes of Health, Doctor Francis Collins, to the broadcast. Thank you for taking time this morning.

FRANCIS COLLINS, M.D. (Director, National Institutes of Health/@NIHDirector): I'm glad to be with you, Margaret.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Doctor, you predicted earlier this month that it may well be boosters are going to be recommended for almost everybody. That didn't happen on Friday. Do you still accept-- expect broad approval?

FRANCIS COLLINS: You know, we have to see how this plays out over the coming weeks because the data changes every day. I do think it was very significant that the FDA Advisory Committee voted unanimously in favor of offering boosters to people sixty-five and over and to others who have high-risk exposures like health care professionals. So we're starting down that path. They weren't convinced yet that the data required this for younger individuals who aren't at high risk. But I think some of the data we're seeing coming in, especially from Israel, tells me that it's likely that they will get to that point. But this was a start, and I know people were confused about different messages. But in a certain way, Margaret, this is the way it ought to be. Science sort of playing out in a very transparent way, looking at the data coming from multiple places, our country, other countries--

MARGARET BRENNAN: Yeah.

FRANCIS COLLINS: --and trying to make the best decision for right now. That's what they did.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But as a medical professional, your view is a third dose of the Pfizer vaccine will be necessary for everyone?

FRANCIS COLLINS: You know, yeah, I am a physician, a scientist, I'm not a politician, I'm trying to figure out what's the best answer here. The place that might still be somewhat questionable would be the very youngest individuals is the benefit risk needed there. But certainly, I think there will be a decision in-- in the coming weeks to extend boosters beyond the list that they approved on Friday.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So this advisory panel, as you said, gave a green light for sixty-five and up and those high risk. Who does that actually mean? Doctor-- Doctor Peter Marks, the FDA official who oversees vaccines, put teachers in that high-risk category. Do you agree with that?

FRANCIS COLLINS: I think they could be seen in that space. They are, after all, in circumstances, especially if they're in classrooms with kids under twelve who can't be vaccinated, where they are at higher risk of exposure than most of the rest of us. So maybe in that regard, they kind of fit into the same category as health care providers. The way in which the FDA panel made the vote, it was a little ambiguous. FDA is going to think about that.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Well, exactly because you wonder, is it just as risky being in a classroom as a hospital ward? And what does that mean for people like me who live with unvaccinated children? Does that put me in a high-risk category?

FRANCIS COLLINS: Margaret, that is a great question. And I think that is one the CDC will probably have their committee discuss in some seriousness on Wednesday and Thursday because, yes, you are in a circumstance with younger kids who can't be immunized where it is more likely that you could be exposed than somebody who's living alone.

MARGARET BRENNAN: We'll watch for that. If someone got the Moderna or the Johnson & Johnson vaccine and they fit into the sixty-five and older category, do they walk into their CVS this week and say, give me a third dose of Pfizer? Can you mix and match? And I know NIH is looking at this, so tell me what you're seeing so far.

FRANCIS COLLINS: So we are right in the middle of those trials to see, can you mix and match any one of the three that have emergency use authorization, can you start with one and boost with the others? We're going to know more about that just in the course of the next two or three weeks. Right now we don't have the answer. Moderna and J&J, by the way, have also submitted their booster data, so it's likely that FDA will be able to have a comment on that pretty soon. It's not quite in sync here. So people who got Moderna that would be including me need to sort of hang on here and see what the recommendation is for those of us who were interested in a booster and people shouldn't be rushing out right now and getting a booster before it's actually gone through this process, a fair number of people seem to be doing that. Hang on, people. Let's be clear, the vaccines right now in the U.S. are doing a great job of protecting people against severe disease hospitalization. What we're worried about is that it's beginning to erode and we're seeing more breakthrough cases and we don't want to get behind this virus. We want to stay ahead of it.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But the White House did want boosters broadly available this week. Do you still believe they will be widely available this week?

FRANCIS COLLINS: Well, part of the reason for this to get talked about a month ago was to be sure we were prepared. You know, I kind of think about this like when you're preparing for a hurricane. We have a system that starts noticing a tropical disturbance somewhere out there in the Atlantic long before there's a risk that it's going to hit New Orleans.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

FRANCIS COLLINS: This is good. That's kind of what we're trying to do with COVID-19. So part of this announcement that this might very well, if FDA and CDC agree it'd be a good thing, was to get all the pharmacies, all of the other preparations together. So there wouldn't be a mad dash at the end--

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

FRANCIS COLLINS: --to try to actually implement this.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right, which we saw with the Trump administration.

FRANCIS COLLINS: I think we are in a pretty good place by the end of this week.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Okay, well--

FRANCIS COLLINS: Yes.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So we know that next month is a target for a vaccine to five- and eleven-year-olds. What about preschoolers and the very young? When do you expect vaccines for them?

FRANCIS COLLINS: So the trials on kids under five are still going on. The data won't be submitted to FDA for a bit longer, so I think realistically we're not going to see approval in that space until very much later this year. I wouldn't want to put a precise date on it, though. There are so many uncertainties there about FDA's review and what the data looks like. But, as you said, kids five to eleven, the data is supposed to come in at the end of this month and FDA will be working 24/7 to go through it.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hm.

FRANCIS COLLINS: So we all hope that can happen in weeks and not months.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Okay, so still potentially within this year for the very young. Quickly, as a doctor, there's going to be a massive gathering in New York City for the U.N. General Assembly this week. Are you concerned it'll be a superspreader event?

FRANCIS COLLINS: Well, I sure hope not. We've had enough of those, haven't we? I hope people are taking this with the appropriate seriousness as far as vaccines and mask wearing and not doing silly things, gathering indoors with masks off amongst people who are unvaccinated or even people who are vaccinated since we know they could also be breakthroughs and can be passing it along. So, yeah, New York, let's pay attention here. We're in the midst of a Delta surge. It is not a safe place to throw caution to the winds.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Doctor, thank you for your time this morning.

FACE THE NATION will be back in one minute with Vermont Senator Bernie Sanders. Stay with us.

(ANNOUNCEMENTS)

MARGARET BRENNAN: We're back now with the chairman of the Senate Budget Committee, Vermont Independent Senator Bernie Sanders, who joins us from Burlington. Good morning to you, Senator.

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS (I-Vermont/@SenSanders): Good morning.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Lots to get to with you today. But I do want to ask your reaction to news that the U.S. military killed seven children, three civilian adults in this drone strike. You have in the past been very critical of reliance on drone strikes. Are you comfortable with the Biden administration's "over-the-horizon" policy?

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: Well, I certainly hope they understand what happened and make sure that never happens again. And this is not only a human tragedy, it reflects on us before the entire world. It's unacceptable.

MARGARET BRENNAN: On immigration, I also want to get your reaction to what the Biden administration just said they're doing this weekend, which is to step up deportations, particularly of some of these Haitian migrants who have gathered in southern Texas, thousands of them. Congresswoman Ilhan Omar has called it inhumane. Do you agree with her and looking at what you're working on right now on Capitol Hill, do you expect immigration will be tucked into this three-and-a-half-trillion-dollar spending plan?

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: I hope it will in the sense that right now we have many, many millions of undocumented people in this country, people who are working hard. In fact, people who have maintained this economy, people doing the essential work, something like eleven million people. And I would hope very much, and I think the American people agree, that now is the time. And if we can do it through reconciliation, I'm there. I want to do it to move toward a path towards citizenship and comprehensive immigration reform through the reconciliation bill. That's my hope.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But that-- whether or not that can be done is still going to be decided. I know you say you want it done. But isn't this exactly the same kind of social policy that moderates are bulking-- balking at here because you're--

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: Well, actually--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --tucking it into a mechanism that even you--

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: Margaret, actually, the truth--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --have said in the past should just be used for budget and spending?

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: Well, the truth is that when you because we have no Republican support in trying to pass a significant piece of legislation representing working families, we have to do it through the so-called reconciliation process, which means that you have to obey the Byrd Rules. I won't go into-- bore you with all the details. So, it's something that we are arguing right now. But I do hope as we move toward what I believe is the most consequential piece of legislation for the working class of this country, as we demand that the wealthiest people and large corporations start paying their fair share of taxes as we lower the cost of prescription drugs as we expand Medicare--

MARGARET BRENNAN: Mm-Hm.

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: --to include dental care for seniors and hearing aids and eyeglasses as we lower the childhood poverty as we have already done, maintain that by fifty percent as a result of the American Rescue Plan. I hope that immigration reform is part of that general package.

MARGARET BRENNAN: But don't all these very worthy causes you're laying out deserve their own debate and consideration. You in the past have said--

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: Well--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --that this is not how this should happen.

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: Margaret right now we have-- right now, we have no Republican support. Zero. There's not one Republican who is prepared to stand up to the drug companies and lower the cost of prescription drugs.

MARGARET BRENNAN: And you may not have full Democratic support either.

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: Not one Republican who wants to build affordable housing. We can't do it without the reconciliation package. So right now, what we are doing and let's be clear, and I want the American people to understand it. We're taking on the pharmaceutical industry. We're spending millions and millions of dollars trying to make sure they could charge us ten times more than the people of other countries for drugs. We're taking on the health care industry--

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: --does not want to expand Medicare. We're taking on the fossil fuel industry who thinks it's okay to continue emitting carbon while destroying the planet.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Senator, but you have to--

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: This is really a--

MARGARET BRENNAN: You have to-- you also--

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: --monumental struggle.

MARGARET BRENNAN: I understand it's monumental and it's a struggle within your own party--

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: You understand that?

MARGARET BRENNAN: --to be frank because Senator Manchin just met this week with President Biden. He continues to say the number you're asking for, it's too big. It's too much. Will you meet with the President this week and do you plan to give anything here to get closer to the numbers--

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: Well, Margaret, I'll tell you this--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --that the moderates in your own party say need to be met?

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: Well, let me tell you this. We have started off, as you know, with, I would guess, eighty percent of the Democratic caucus supporting a six-trillion-dollar bill. Remember, this is over ten years. Per year it's less than we spend on the military. Now maybe you can tell me, or somebody else can tell me, how much we should spend to save the planet. Because what the scientists are telling us is that if we don't get a handle on climate change within the next few years, there will be irreparable damage. And you know what I got four kids and seven grandchildren. And I think we have a moral responsibility to leave them a planet that is healthy and is habitable--

MARGARET BRENNAN: Are you sure that President--

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: So we are working-- right now we got fifty, we got fifty votes. We're going to have to work it out, as we did with the American Rescue Plan. But I have already made, and my colleagues have made a major compromise, going from six trillion down to three and a half trillion.

MARGARET BRENNAN: So am I hearing you correctly when you say you are not willing to move on that three-and-a-half-trillion-dollar number, even if the President asks you to do it? I mean, are you risking losing out for that?

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: Right now-- look, right now what we are doing is we are engaging with the House and the Senate. It is a complicated proposal. All I am telling you is the three and a half trillion is much too low. A compromise has already been made; an agreement has been made. And the American people, by the way, poll after poll after poll are telling us--

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: --now is the time to stand up to powerful special interests. Now is the time to start representing working families. On all of these issues--

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: --they are enormously powerful and maybe, just maybe we can work for workers for a change and not just campaign wealthy campaign contributors.

MARGARET BRENNAN: You keep saying-- you keep saying the number of fifty votes, but it is well reported that Senator Manchin and Senator Sinema are not with you--

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: You know--

MARGARET BRENNAN: --on this within the Democratic Party. Are you certain--

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: Well, we went through this with the American Rescue Plan.

MARGARET BRENNAN: --that President Biden will get them all in line?

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: We dealt with this with the American Rescue Plan, which, as you know, is the most significant piece of legislation to take us out of the economic decline. And it cut childhood poverty by fifty percent. It provided unemployment benefits. It did what had to be done to get us out of the emergency. We came together.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Right.

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: And I expect because of the pressure of the American people we're going to come together again and do what has to be done.

MARGARET BRENNAN: Will you meet with President Biden this week, just like Senator Manchin did last?

SENATOR BERNIE SANDERS: I talked to, I talked to-- I'm happy to meet with the President any time, but at the end of the day, I think what--